Can animals reason? CONTINUATION OF "DO ANIMALS HAVE A SOAL QUESTION"
Recovered historical discussion from Can animals reason? CONTINUATION OF "DO ANIMALS HAVE A SOAL QUESTION".
To bring those interested in my posting "do animals have a soul", up to date I have had to make a tactical retreat with my minister. It's difficult to argue to religious dogma - especially with a minister who knows the Bible - chapter and verse. To boot the bugger out flanked me by using the writings of ancient philosophers to shore up his position.
Again, this is a friendly argument. My core beliefs have not been altered in anyway. However I refuse to go down so easy.
I have decided to take a different tact to see how he reacts. The question is whether a dog can reason.
My wife ad I have been involved in training dogs for several years and familiar with Pavlov's and other scientists experiments/conclusions. We are also familiar with the theory of "linking", where a dog can link one activity to another. However, both of us have seen our dogs do things that are difficult to explain away. Consider the following:
Merlin was trained to bring the mail to me in return for a treat. For weeks he would bring the mail over and drop it in my lap - no problem. Things changed one afternoon. When the mail (our mailman puts a rubbed band around the mail to keep it in a bundle) was pushed thru the mail slot in the door, Merlin sat down and looked at it for several minutes as if he was thinking of something.
After picking the bundle of mail up, he slowly walked towards me. As he did he started vigorously shaking the bundle with several pieces of mail falling out of the bundle. After receiving a treat for the first bundle, he beat it off to get the rest. Despite this obvious attempt to manipulate me I held my ground and didn't give him a treat. I asked my wife about this, with her assuring me that she never taught him this. When his first attempt failed, he resorted to taking magazines off of the coffee table, bring it over to us and wait for a treat. Merlin continues to experiment to see what he needs to do to get more cookies.
He also has an innate sense to determine what type of mood my wife and I are in. It's easy to explain his playfulness when we come home in a good mood. However, his actions to our sadness is met I a variety of ways. He has been know to quietly sit...
[Excerpted from the archived discussion.]
Archived source: https://web.archive.org/web/20140329211654/http://www.spacetimeandtheuniverse.com/off-topic/6891-can-animals-reason-continuation-do-animals-have-soal-question.html
Replies
astromark
~ You are correct. However there is a real issue with the understanding of the question.
That the words used can be miss- interpreted or manipulated to mean what ever suits 'your' or 'his' argument..
" Can animals reason ? " Yes obviously.. as your case study shows. The Dog does not need to be taught.. It knows.
That certain deeds reap rewards.. thats thinking. What does that prove ? Unfortunately, not much.
Do animals have a soul - No. Because some of us will argue there is no such thing..
~ Nothing has a soul ~ is a argument I can get into.. That is the core issue with the question.
It would be my contention that what so ever you think is from and of the Grey mater within your heads cranial cavity..Your brain function. Thinking and the ability to reason does not pre suppose a soul.. a spirited argument..
"The ability to reason and make independent choice does exhibit thought process. Sentient beings do this."
You will not convince a man of the church that he is wasting his life on a bunch of false belief structures.
You may not agree with my view.. I would find it disappointing if all were to agree..
Mugaliens
Indeed! As one who had no personal knowledge or understanding of God while growing up, then a sharp demarcation punctuated by a spiritual awakening, I can emphatically state there's a clear difference, to me, at least, as well as to more than one billion other humans all over the globe, that the "heart, mind, soul, and strength" about which Jesus spoke in the Bible are indeed four different aspects of one's being.
While some differences of opinion exist about each, the general consensus is that "heart" embodies one's feelings, as in a passion to reach a goal or adhere to a purpose. Mind is one's intellect, higher brain functions by which we reason. Clearly, heart and mind are strongly linked, but consider that one's heart comes more from the animal brain while one's mind has to do with the frontal lobes. As for strength, that's simply one's body, but it too is linked to the mind by way of one's will. Thus, when "the mind is willing but the flesh is weak," willpower can overpower a tired body.
This brings us to the only aspect of persona remaining: The soul. I find it interesting that to this day, any MAYDAY call must include call sign (aircraft) or ship's name, location, and number of souls aboard before any other information. If you're carrying any human remains, whether they've been dead of weeks or seconds, they do not count as a "soul." Their bodies (strength) remain. Their heart (animal brain) and mind (forebrain) remain. All the physical components are there, even though they no longer function properly.
It's long been said when a person dies, his soul departs. So what is soul? Is it creativity? No, that's heart/mind. Will? No, that's mind/strength.
I believe it's spirit, for several reasons, the first of which is that before my own spiritual awakening, I was a thinking, feeling, rational, intelligent, and physically capable human being. I'd even gone to church a number of times, but for social reasons. I just didn't get what they were talking about when they mentioned all the spiritual stuff. "Soul? Yeah, right. Spirit?" I wasn't belligerent about it. And since less than half of our fellowship group seemed to really believe it, the rest of us just...
[Excerpted from the archived discussion.]
astromark
What part of this shall I pick on first.. ? Does the Elephant really paint for expression of art, or reward.
Come to think of it does painting for reward disqualify a sentiant being with it's own mind set of notions of expression.. ?
and that Comunications between beings of information, learned skills, and that the ability to comunicate might be a better pointer to ... wait a minute.. I am getting a long way from souls and reason.. I suggest that we all can see that some animals are good comunicators and some not. That reasoning and thought are complex issues.
'Mugaliens' seperates the brain fuctions into 'hart felt' spiritual, learned, knowledge and I suggest heredity..From the above post,..( my words, not his.)
Do animals reason ? Yes. Are we animals ? Yes. Do animals have souls ? No. Do we, No. Will you agree ? No..
and thats fine..
astrotech
Do I know I have a soul? No. Do I have faith that the spiritual experiences I have had, assuming they are fabrications of material life such as mind body etc, are indicators that I have a soul? Yes. Does such faith provide knowledge of the soul? No. Does my dog have faith in me? Seems so. He does seem to have faith that I will return home at the end of the day and not eat him. Does he have faith in a soul? Yer guess is as good as mine.
astromark
The issue I can see unfolding with this question is not so much the question itself but the understanding of what the soul might be.. Do animals reason ? Yes of course they must. Understanding what it is to be said to reason is to evaluate, think, weigh and make choices.. Reason. If you have a different set for the term to reason..Then your meanings will alter. The meanings attached to the word soul are a little more cloudy..
With out any reserve I claim to not have a soul. I do however have a individual character. Call it my entity or my identity.. It is what makes me, me. That I have clear individual thought. Yes I do. Have I ever had a thought I can truly lay claim to. Hardly., and harder still to prove. My mind and imagination are wondrous places of fictions and half truths. Being in control is a skill I struggle with.
and off I go on yet another aside issue..
I am sure of some things and can be swayed by weight of new information..of and from others..yes. but be clear of this as I understand it as 'good science.' With the lac of oxygenated blood to my brain it will and does die. ceasing to function.
No mystical unseen part is found to move away or remain in and no further brain activity can or has ever been found..
No detectable weight leaves the body mass. Heat loss begins and a disintegration process has started almost immediately.
No other real detectable or measurable part of the human mind survives death.. Death is not passing away, over or beyond.. No sprite realm is detected as real. None. That which most consider to be the soul is in fact that which is the mind. I am in control of mine, most of the time..